Ask Us Anything: When Your Partner Is in Denial About Your Child’s Diagnosis

Hello Brave Friends! This is an Ask Us Anything episode in which YOU, the listener, get to write or call in and, you guessed it, ask us anything.

In this Ask Us Anything episode, #253, we’re responding to the question many parents quietly carry:

“Hi Brave Together Podcast--What do you do when your partner is in denial about your child's needs?”

In this conversation, Jessica Patay, Susanna Peace Lovell, and Dr. Zoe Shaw explore the emotional complexity that can arise when parents process a child’s diagnosis differently.

The hosts discuss how denial is often rooted in grief, fear, overwhelm, shame, or uncertainty—not a lack of love. They talk about how one parent may be ready to seek services, ask questions, and move into action, while the other may still be struggling to accept what is happening. These different coping styles can create tension, loneliness, resentment, and conflict within a relationship.

Jessica, Susanna, and Zoe share personal insight and practical strategies for navigating this difficult dynamic with compassion and resilience. They discuss the importance of communication, empathy, timing, and curiosity over judgment. They also emphasize that support groups, therapy, family counseling, and community connection can be life-changing resources for couples feeling stuck.

The conversation also touches on cultural stigma around diagnoses, fears about labels, sibling dynamics, and the importance of advocating for a child’s needs even when parents are not on the same page. The hosts remind listeners that it is okay to have needs, ask for help, and seek support for yourself while your partner works through their own process.

This episode is a powerful reminder that parents do not have to process things at the same pace to still move forward together.

Keep the questions coming—we’re here to support you. Whether you’re parenting a child with complex medical, developmental, or mental health needs, or supporting someone who is, we would love to hear from you. We see you and we love you.

Find more information about Licensed Psychotherapist, Dr. Zoe Shaw here. 

Find Dr. Zoe’s book, Stronger in the Difficult Places: Heal Your Relationship with Yourself by Untangling Complex Shame

Brave Together is the podcast for We are Brave Together, a not-for-profit organization based in the USA. The heart of We Are Brave Together is to strengthen, encourage, inspire and validate all moms of children with disabilities and other needs in their unique journeys. 

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Feel free to contact Jessica Patay via email: jpatay@wearebravetogether.org 

If you have any topic requests or if you would like to share a story, leave us a message here.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to Brave Together Podcast, an empowering resource for the parents of children with disabilities, neurodivergence, and all unique needs.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

You know, for people who may need to have a little less empathy, and it's not having less empathy, it's understanding that, yes, we can understand why someone doesn't show up for us in the way that they should, why someone's behavior is maybe unhealthy, but it still doesn't mean that we don't hold them accountable for it, right? We have we can do both. We can have the empathy and still demand that someone shows up in the way that they need to show up.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Hi, Bravies. This is Jessica Petti, a mom, storyteller, advocate, and the founder and CEO of We Are Brave Together, whose mission is to preserve and protect the mental health of caregiving moms everywhere. And I'm joined by two fantastic fellow Brave Mom co-hosts to help answer your questions.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Hi, I'm Susanna Peace Lavelle. I'm an author, a certified life coach and soul care coach, and an advocate for the health and wellness of disability families everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Hi, I'm Dr. Zoe, a licensed psychotherapist, writer, speaker, author, and complex games expert.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

We are gathered here to share our experiences, share our wisdom, and answer your questions. Have a caregiving question? Find the link in the show notes to leave us your message.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

May you feel seen and heard and not alone. Hi, Brave Together Podcast. What do you do when your partner is in denial about your child's needs?

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Hi, friends. How are you? Hi, my sisters. So good to see you guys. Good to see you too. I love all our bright colors today.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

We did primaries without even checking.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

We just come in organically. We never even check with each other, which is the beauty of just coming as you are. In every way we mean that, right? Absolutely. Today we have a new question. And I'm surprised we haven't I'm sure it's probably come up, but we haven't addressed this specifically in an ask us anything episode, or even when we've had probably a marriage therapist, you know, on the podcast in the last six years. So yeah, what do we do when your partner is in denial about your child's needs, struggles, the diagnosis or the need for testing?

SPEAKER_01 2:49

It's such a good question because I know that a lot of couples struggle with this, even if it isn't complete denial, a lot of couples will be in different places regarding the lens that they see their child's diagnosis through. And some are more involved and some are more disconnected. Um, even emotionally, some are more able to talk about it. And you may have, you know, a partner who doesn't want to talk about it. And so I think we, you know, a lot of couples come from different places on this. And so I think it's really good to address it. You know, my story is I definitely felt that my ex was in denial um to a certain extent about Sully's diagnosis, and that he didn't participate in wanting to really understand about it at all. He knew we had a diagnosis, and it was kind of like that's on me. That's that's kind of my thing to do. In fact, he because when Sully came home, she was on um the apnea machine, which would go off way too many times in the middle of the night. And she was also on um oxygen, and so the oxygen machine, this huge thing, I don't know if you guys had that beside your bed, which was so loud. And then you've got the apnea machine that's going off constantly. And he moved out. He's like, I can't take this. This is just too much. And so when I say moved out, he moved out of the bedroom. And so I was very much left to do it all myself because it was too much for him to deal with. Um, and I I know that for me, I don't think that I handled it well. I just took it all on. And I would go to him and tell him things that I learned. I'd go to him and tell him what happened. He wasn't even there when I got the diagnosis. I was, I went, you know, took Sully to the geneticist. He was probably taking care of the boys. So he was at home taking care of the boys when I took Sully there and when I went back for the the follow-up. You know, it was always me informing him about what was happening and what we were doing and the new treatment and all of the things. And he was just kind of like, okay. He never looked at me and said, This isn't what's going on with her, but it was just denial in that I'm not dealing with it. That's what you have to deal with. So that was my experience. And when I say I don't feel like I dealt with it well, I think there should have been more conversations. Me coming to him and saying, Hey, I'm not feeling like you are as invested in this as I am. I feel like we should be do making some of these decisions together. Like we should be researching and figuring things out for Sully. So yeah, that's that was that was my experience.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

I would just like to offer to our audience that receiving a diagnosis or diagnoses, or even before there's a formal diagnosis and you are aware that something is different or unique or extra about your child, there are so many feelings that come up that are absolutely understandable for all of us, for each and all of us. You know, as you were saying, Dr. Zoe, it's like we have, we we maybe come from different places or we have different timelines of how we process our feelings or emotions or worries. But I think that for each and every parent, um, no matter who the parent is, um, the primary caregiver or not, I feel like there is this, I don't know, it's like this process of, okay, so wait, what? Okay, so hold on. Wait, what's happening? Okay, we need to look for some help. We need to get some help. And I know that in my case, you know, it was a process over time of trying to understand what was going on with our daughter Arizona and her, you know, sort of special needs, her unique needs. And my personality is very much like, you know, let me roll up my sleeves and do do do do do. Yeah, right. Which, by the way, as we all know, that's not sustainable forever. It's just not sustainable. And especially when you're in a partnership, you know, I had a husband at the time, he's having his own process, but I just was like, I just need the facts. I just want to know what's going on. In my case, with Arizona's diagnosis that started off with food allergies, but that was not so uncommon or abnormal. It was of ultimately getting an autism diagnosis when she was two and a half, that was a very long process. And so it wasn't like, here's the thing, one day. It was this, it was this winding journey into finally discovering this particular diagnosis. So I feel like that process was lengthy. And so I had my own journey with that, and then my ex-husband had his own journey with that, which was very much to sort of go inward and not really want to deal with it in the moment, right? I'm curious for you, Jessica, too. Because there were so many unknowns, but there were also things like right at birth for for both Sully and both Ryan, right? That were noticeably needs, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:33

Yeah. We were both equally uh scared and wondering. And in fact, I mean, Chris, I could say Chris is the one who diagnosed Ryan because he looked up the three main symptoms that Ryan was dealing with failure to thrive because he couldn't cry and he couldn't suck, he didn't cry for food, hypotonia, and undecended testicles, which happens in PWS with boys. And uh popped Proderwilly syndrome. And we had three doctors that said he doesn't look like it because there is a look in PWS, not as significant as Down syndrome. But my husband said, Well, we don't have any answers, let's test anyways. So he was definitely in it with me, and we had our own ways of grieving, right? And I think that's something that's really important to acknowledge here is that when a partner or a spouse is in denial, it's it's because they're grieving, it's because they're afraid, it's because if this is true, does that mean that I did something wrong? There's something wrong with my genetics, there's something with wrong with my body, there's something wrong with me, or am I being punished, as Zoe, you've talked about in the past, like that was something that you grappled with. So there's a lot going on. And I, and so I think it's probably hard, but really helpful to pause and think about all those things to try to have compassion, you know, instead of like, could you rise up? Like, could you get it? Could you whatever, right? Like it would be really easy because we're exhausted, we're scared, we're worried, we're frustrated, we're sleep deprived, to lash out. Yeah. Would you please do something? And those are all normal feelings. And of course, we're all about validating all our feelings. And I think it's just helpful to acknowledge and have compassion on where they're they're at. Chris and I, for the most part, have remained on the same page with Ryan in terms of medications or therapies, or the early years and a million doctors and you know, OGPT speech and everything. And I carried that because I was a stay-at-home mom. But I have to say, Chris went to every specialist visit the first three years. I don't know how as an attorney working. I don't, I don't know how he did that. He did. And he he went to almost every single IEP except maybe three, I don't know, out of the years. Like he was he's always been in it with me. And I'm really, really grateful. Um, because it would be easy. I just want to say, it would be really easy to feel bitter and resentful if your partner's like, you do it, you carry, you're better at it. You know, whether whatever drives that, whether it's ego, pride, fear, um, I'm afraid to even try to do the care, taking the G the medications, the whatever it is. Um, you know, learn the behavior plans, learn the, you know, uh behavior management, whatever, whatever it is that's driving it, I mean, yeah, it's gonna make us feel really resentful and feel alone that we're managing something so hard, so alone. And that's awful. That's an awful way to feel.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Yeah. And you know, I think something that Chris did naturally was to go to all of those appointments, which helped him get all of that information. For a woman out there who is feeling like her partner is in denial. I think that that is the best advice is to figure out a way to get him to those appointments. Because if he goes, he'll hear it from someone other than you. He will be able to ask questions and it kind of makes it more real when there is a doctor, a professional telling you what's happening with your child when it's just your partner, right? Or maybe you've you're reading something on the internet. And so if you can at the very least get your partner to agree to show up at the appointments with you, at least the major ones where you're going to be getting information, um, that may be helpful.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Yeah, for for sure. I mean, I I definitely agree with you. I was just thinking, Jessica, when you were sharing about Chris, and I was like, well, maybe that's the reason why you are still in a thriving marriage. Right. No, seriously, right? Absolutely. That's you know, that's what we envision for ourselves as you know, jumping into a marriage and comm having that commitment. Right. And, you know, as someone who is now divorced, I will say that, you know, I didn't, I wasn't able to access so much compassion either for myself or for my ex-husband in the moment, right? I was, you know, breastfeeding Arizona around the clock. You know, I'm just focusing on other things, right? You both had other children at home. I, you know, I did not, but either way, you know, one of the things in terms of different ways that denial can show up, I know my ex-husband was very much like he's sort of a contrarian by nature anyway. And I there were certain things that I was trying to get Arizona to do, like give people a high five, or you know, like when they were little, like yeah, give them a hug. And and he was always just like, well, if she doesn't want to give them a hug, then she shouldn't give them a hug. And I was like, no, but it's more like we're greeting, we're we're trying to do something here. And this is even more social skills, social skills, right? Which which come very naturally for me, and and maybe not as naturally for him, you know, but either way, I just remembered thinking, like, not trying to force her to do something. This is just this is just how you know, we're saying hi to grandpa, right? Or whatever it is. But I just remembered him always being like, let her do whatever she wants to do. And I was like, well, does that also mean like running into the middle of the street? No. So, so it just it was again completely different experiences. And then, you know, I think what we can also talk about too is what happens when there is sort of a diagnosis and an understanding, and we're all on the same page, like, okay, so Arizona is diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder, she has all these other little things, and then there is the denial of like, well, then, but let's not talk about it with anyone, you know, let's not share this information. I'm curious about you both and your experiences with that because mine was very, very challenging.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

So he had a lot of shame around the diagnosis and didn't want other people to know.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

I, you know, I I can I have such a different lens around it now. And yeah, I think it was, I think he was very, very worried. I mean, he spiraled, like he started Googling everything and went into a I would consider depression, like a really dark place. Never diagnosed, but I I just felt like he was like, I'm running away from this, you know, so understandable. And I was so worried and in fear too, but I was looking for community. And he was like, No, we don't need to tell anyone. We I don't want anyone to treat her any differently. And I was like, Yeah, but she's different, you know, her needs are different, and people can see that she's presenting differently. And here I am, dee-dee doo, like acting like at the playground, even though I was just like, is there anyone out there like me?

SPEAKER_03 16:34

I need. Oh my gosh, is there anyone out there like me? Before I answer that, or before we answer that, Susanna, can I ask, like, how did your Taiwanese culture inform your ability to share? Because typically, you know, I know that, you know, honor and saving face is definitely a part of the Asian culture. And it, you know, you seem like you're so open and so willing to share. And I know we've had moms come to We Are Brave retreats in events, connection circles, who are a part of the Asian community and have said, you know, in their shares how hard it is to accept and their family to accept, and how hard it is to talk about so they isolate.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Well, that is a fantastic question. And I will say I'm so grateful for the opportunity to have given birth to and being able to raise my daughter Arizona because that has allowed me the opportunity and the consciousness to be more compassionate and more understanding of you know, everyone is going through something, as opposed to like, well, I'm gonna judge you for, you know, innately, just how I was raised, right? Like your kid isn't potty trained at age three. I don't know why. What are you doing wrong, parent? Right. But I think um to answer that question fully is that I had the experience of such severe postpartum anxiety and depression before even going on this diagnosis journey with Arizona that I was so laid out, could not function, could not sleep. After two and a half weeks of not sleeping one second, I fell into the craziest depression. I mean like hallucinations, wanted to like jump off the crazy, crazy, crazy. So I had no choice except for to talk about it. I was talking to my mom and my sisters, and you know, they were like, you know, sort of like, well, we know this one mom who had to go to the hospital while her mom took, you know, it was kind of also Asian families. And and so ultimately I was just like, I need so much help. And so then already having had that experience, now I'm in the midst of trying to figure out the diagnosis or diagnoses for Arizona, and I was like, okay, I can't be alone in this again. Like this was so hard for me during the postpartum, like hush, hush, there's so much shame. I actually even went to some support groups for postpartum depression, and it was so I felt even worse about myself because it was so doom, it was so doom and gloom. I didn't have we are brave together. I had nothing. So I just was like, no, no, no, but I need I want to be able to share. I want to be able to just, you know, I'm so lonely at home all day with Arizona, just me and her, right? So thank you for asking that important question. And that's you know, that's one of my biggest, biggest, you know, passions in this world is to create a different narrative in the Asian community, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

Amen, amen. So good. I think I've said this before on the podcast that right when Ryan got his diagnosis at five weeks of age, there were members of the family that said, Don't tell anybody because you don't want him labeled and and you don't know like how he'll be affected. So Chris and I held on to that for about 24 hours, and then one of my best friends said, you know, this is for life, this is a lifelong disability, this is a lifelong diagnosis, and you just might alienate the people who want to walk alongside you and support you and love you and love Ryan. You don't talk about it, he's he'll become the elephant in the room. Like people are gonna know something's off. And I I I'm very opinionated, I think you all know that by now. And Listen and Zoe and Susanna. Um, and I was asked recently on a podcast, like, what would you say to a parent who's new and doesn't want to tell anybody for fear of their child being labeled? And I said, Everybody knows your kids different, anyways, whether you say it or not.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Good. That's so good.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

Everybody knows, and kids are so intuitive, they know they know that something is different those days. That's right. So is it about you? Is it because you're attaching shame to a diagnosis and stigma to a diagnosis and and how people will treat you? But people are going to treat you differently when your child is different, no matter if you are open and fess up and just share openly, like this is this is just who we are, this is our story.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Or if you don't, yeah, that's so good. That's so good. People will already know, and you might as well get the support that you can. That's so good. I wanted to circle back because you were saying, uh, Susanna, that you didn't feel a lot of that empathy. And Jessica, you were encouraging women to feel empathy for their partner. And my issue was that I had way too much empathy. And so for a woman listening Out there to the to the point that it was really codependency, where I understood how hard things were for him, and I understood why maybe he couldn't, you know, help or pay attention or want to be able to acknowledge the diagnosis. And so I over-empathized with him and took on all the burden. And that was a mistake. And so, you know, for people who may need to have a little less empathy, and it's not having less empathy, it's understanding that, yes, we can understand why someone doesn't show up for us in the way that they should, why someone's behavior is maybe unhealthy, but it still doesn't mean that we don't hold them accountable for it, right? We have, we can do both. We can have the empathy and still demand that someone shows up in the way that they need to show up. Um, and so I would just encourage somebody who might need to have less empathy to um not get caught up in that and recognize if you are really trying to hold your partner's um, hold responsibility for your partner's emotions and trying not to upset them and really co-signing in some ways with the denial, then you're also part of the problem. And what you have to do is step away from that and not cosign with their denial in any way and continue to bring it to them in a way that hopefully they can hear it. That's really good because I'm sure that happens as well. Of course it does. All three, yes, all of them happen. And so as listeners are listening out, maybe you can identify am I someone that's you know healthily empathic? Am I not being empathic at all, or am I being way too empathic? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

I wonder if also too, I'm just having some aha moments. I know that hindsight is 2020, but I'm just thinking it's so much easier for us to react and act out to a particular scenario that feels, you know, especially when we're both in like worry and grief and deer in the headlights and all of that. Um, I, you know, just thought about this right now. Like I wish, I wish there would have been an offering at the time of the diagnosis or diagnoses or the process over a couple of years. In in our case with Arizona, there were multiple things that were diagnosed over a couple of years. And never once was there a suggestion for therapeutic support, like family therapy, like some sort of some professional to assist with, you know, my husband at the time and myself to be able to process this together. Now, I had my own therapist on my own, and I would, you know, sort of force him to come with me from time to time. But there was no like, you know, just like Jessica, how you sometimes, you know, are wondering like, why are people, why aren't people saying, like, do you have community? You know, or or like, but there was no offering of therapy. And I think that for sure a third party, and not necessarily the doctor who gives the diagnosis, because that doesn't always feel warm and fuzzy, in my opinion. No, no, no, very technical. Could be very much like, well, it is what it is. Now you need to get on the hurry up, yes, on the therapy train, right? Yeah, but can I can you imagine? Uh can I imagine how supportive that would have been to be sent to a therapist who was experiencing Why is that not part of it?

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Why is that not part of the treatment when you get a life-changing, completely altering diagnosis?

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:44

Well, I think we need to contact the American Pediatric Association um here in the United States. And so it is on my list to do, um, for sure, because I think we need more doctors asking parents, do you have community? And have you ever thought about family therapy?

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Right, right. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 26:05

Both. Yes. Both. Not just here's a printout from the you know, internet on your diagnosis. Yeah. And and how, you know, how do you find that's right. You need to know about we are brave together. They need about, you know, organizations that support our families.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

It I mean, resources, right? Here are some local resources. Here are some, you know, some of the therapists that other families in our office have found to be supportive. Here's a men's group for dads, right? Here are uh diagnosis specific groups. I know, Jessica, you were able to find a Protter Willie support group, right?

SPEAKER_03 26:49

Right, right away. Thankfully. Yeah, it made all the difference. I mean, that was that's all part of my origin story for wanting to create We Are Brave Together, because I saw, oh, I'm in a room full of people that are going through the same thing. How comforting. Oh, look, they're smiling. Oh, look, they shared this nugget with me. Oh, they want to come over. Oh, they're inviting us over. Oh, I'm not alone. Yeah. But I think also something that can happen that we have to be really, really careful of when we have a partner who doesn't seem, you know, in the beginning to equally share the mental load, the physical load, fully embrace the diagnosis and whatever medical or therapeutic path that you're on, um, is not to take over on everything. Well, you don't seem to care. So I'm just gonna do everything because that really sets you up for burnout.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

It does.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

I think you know, we always have to ask for help. When I get asked, what would you tell a new mom that you are not alone, even though it feels like you are, and you have to ask for help. You have to ask for help. Even regular typical parents, I say that parenting is hard, having a baby is hard, having sleepless nights is hard. You have to ask for help. And isn't this a lifelong quest? Yes, it is. I mean, even still to this day, we're still in between programming for Ryan. Yeah, and you know, Chris works from home on Fridays, and I don't have a full-time caregiver on Fridays. And sometimes I'm like, I I have to, I have this work thing or what have you, and I I need you to be on. Like I I know that you're working, and I know that you're working from home. You're just gonna have to figure it out, please. Right. And I I don't I probably don't do that enough. There's a flaw. I mean there's no flaw. No flaw. But you know, I mean, it's I'm not always asking for, even though I preach this, I'm not always, always asking. Um I think I've done a pretty good job for almost 23 years, but there are still times when I'm like, no, I'll just do it, figure it out, I'll juggle it all.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Yeah, I know our our bodies keep the score. That's all I'm gonna say about that. I mean, I I I I I even do it with Arizona, like there are certain things that she needs to learn in terms of life skills, and I'm like, oh, it's gonna take me 17 prompts to redirect her to do this one thing, or it'll take me two seconds to rinse her bowl, right?

SPEAKER_03 29:38

So true, so true, so so true. If anyone is listening and you find yourself in a situation where you're afraid to speak up, you're like you know something is wrong. Um, either your child's getting worse in some way, maybe this is before or after a diagnosis, and you're wanting to keep the peace. You don't want to rock the boat. They can't seem to see it or want to see it, but you can see that your child is having more and more symptoms. Please don't wait till you're in crisis. And that could be also a child who is battling depression, anxiety, OCD, alcohol, substance abuse. Don't wait until they're in absolute crisis to speak up or to talk to a professional or talk to a therapist or talk to a doctor or talk to somebody about it just because you're afraid of rocking the boat. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yeah, I mean, I and I think this also ties back to what can happen sometimes when one partner is in denial and the other partner, okay, how about me, is like so aware and in tune with what's happening, what's real and true, but wanting to take care of the other person's feelings by not like you know, standing on the mountaintop and announcing to the world, right? There's gotta be some sort of middle ground because what you're also talking about too, Jessica, and what you just shared is that what happens is that we all end up in some way suffering in silence. Okay. So I remember thinking, I need community, I want to talk to people, I don't know what I'm doing here. Um in the community. I mean, I had my mom and I had my sisters, like they were on speed dial, right? But they're not in my community, right? So I would be at the playground watching, you know, two-year-olds scurry up the top of whatever apparatus, and Arizona, you know, trying to grasp and trying to write in in her motor skills, and she's four and a half or five, but whatever it is, right? So clearly, and then you have you know these one and a half year old chat, mommy, I'm gonna go potty. And I'm like, what's going on here? Right. So I I just know that too often we just we silence ourselves because we want to accommodate others. That's why. Because we don't want anyone else to feel uncomfortable, and and like you said, it's like, well, okay, but there's this elephant in the room anyway. How can we learn to honor ourselves and everyone else, but ourselves first, really, actually, without feeling like, oh, I'm, you know, it's all about me all the time, right?

SPEAKER_03 32:36

So what would you say? I would love to hear from a therapist's point of view. Like, what do we do to take care of ourselves in that?

SPEAKER_01 32:44

So, you know, I think what we have to understand when it comes to codependency is that we think that we are caring and uh being like having empathy for the other person, and that's why we're taking on so much. But often it's really because we are trying to control their emotion so that we feel better. When we can get to a point where we can be okay if they're not okay, then we're able to express our needs, then we're able to ask for what we need to, but we have to sit in that space of feeling uncomfortable if somebody else feels uncomfortable that we're close to. And that's that's the hard work.

SPEAKER_03 33:34

Give us a like how that actually like plays out. Like, give us a little scenario, Zoe.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

Yeah. So I don't want to ask him to wake up in the middle of the night to, you know, or or stay up and and listen to the monitor or monitor the monitor or wake up and do a feeding or something like that, because I know he's gonna get upset, he's gonna get grumpy. When he gets that way, then I feel insecure in the relationship and I don't want to feel that anxiety, I don't want to feel that insecurity. So I'll just take it on. He's if he's feeling good, then at least I feel secure in the relationship. As opposed to I'm going to ask him for what I need. And if he gets upset, I'm still okay. I can let him feel upset, and it doesn't mean that we're upset, right? It doesn't mean that now I have this sense of fear about my own sense of safety in the relationship. I'm talking about emotional safety. Um, and it's hard because you have to sit with it. Because what's going to happen is when he gets upset, you're going to start to feel insecure and you're going to feel like I need to fix that so that I feel better in the relationship. And so you have to sit with that and you have to feel that insecurity and know that you're still okay. And when you can talk yourself through the insecurity, when you can self-soothe, when you can do all of the things that you need to do to shore yourself up, then you're no longer looking for your partner to shore up your own sense of self, right? And then guess what? He gets to get upset and he gets to work through it, and then he'll be fine over time. The other issue, though, is that if your partner knows that you feel uncomfortable with them being upset, then they can then use them being upset to get out of things that they don't want to do, right? So it's it becomes this vicious cycle. And so what happens is you have to maintain your sense of self even when they are upset, because that behavior will extinguish if they're not getting anything from it. It's hard, but it's very doable. And it takes you sitting with knowing, I'm going to feel this way when they get upset. He is not me, I am not him, and I can still be okay even if he's not. And you've got to talk yourself through it if you need to call a friend, if you need to call a therapist, if you need to do journal, if you need to do all of your self-soothing behavior, the more you work through it, the stronger you become. And then you get to have your feelings, and he gets to have his feelings, and you get to ask for what you need and be okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

I mean, yeah, you just solved all my problems in my entire life. Seriously. Because it's okay for us to have needs. We never need to apologize for our needs, right? They are valid no matter what, right? No matter what, yeah, they are so valid. No sorries, no, like, oh no, but he's the one going to work every day, and I don't want to, right? No, yes, I still have this need, and it's okay for me to ask. That doesn't mean everything is gonna fall perfectly into place, right? And it's okay if they're not happy with you after that. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

Right.

SPEAKER_03 37:05

This is so much unlearning because I feel like we're all raised and for generations raised in such an opposite way.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Absolutely. We're socialized, especially as girls, yes, to be nice and accommodating and don't make other people upset. And if you're, you know, I heard I have, I don't, I have to say this because it really it really made me angry. Um, our nanny was telling my daughter, she's no longer our nanny, by the way, that she needed to clean up in the kitchen because when she grows up, her husband will be angry with her if she can't keep a good kitchen. I was like, what? What? You need to clean up so that some a man will not be angry at you. I'm I'm I know I'm going off on a tangent, but these are the things that girls are taught. Yeah. Don't be this certain way so that a man won't dislike you or be upset with you. Because then the message is if he is, then there's something wrong with you. That's right. Right? And so you need to manage his anger. So anyway, yes, we're socialized. Um do that very early, very early. And apparently it's still happening. People are still saying these things to girls. Yes. Oh, 1000%.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:26

Yeah. Don't be too loud, don't be too opinionated, don't talk too much, don't yeah. So that you'll be accepted. Right. Don't have needs, don't have wants. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Yeah. And then what happens is then you turn 52 and have a mental breakdown, you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

Every other blow it all up, right?

SPEAKER_03 38:52

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love the 50s because, and we've probably all seen memes and videos, but it's just, it is a free, freeing stage. It's a freeing season. Like, I don't care as much. And you know what? I'm not gonna shoot the shit and make small talk with people anymore. And I'm not gonna be with people who drain me. I'm you know, I I I'm gonna be in mutual, life-giving, loving, fun relationships. I'm going to choose how I spend my time. I don't have to give my time to everyone and everything as it, you know, should. It's just it is the beauty of getting older. It is and having perspective.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

It's a gift that girls should get in their 20s.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Right. Um, and we all have daughters, right? The three of us all have daughters, and you know, they're they're watching us, right? They're they're seeing how we move through life and respond and react and meltdown and all of the above. You know, we it's it's important, it's important that we that we can model healthy processes and behavior and asking. Well, actually, I would I would offer to say that Arizona has no problem asking. No problem, zero problem.

SPEAKER_04 40:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

So, so in that in that aspect, she is absolutely my biggest teacher for sure. But going back to this mom and the question about, you know, what do you do when your partner is in denial about your child's needs? I mean, I guess, you know, the first thing I would say is, well, let's let's, you know, look inward into your why, you know, why is this, why is why are you having discomfort or pain around this? You know, can we take a step back and just have that sort of time and ability to reflect on on our own feelings, uh, and then potentially be able to extend that compassion outward to our partner. I mean, it's easier said than done, but I'm just, you know, like, can we ask ourselves what would be supportive for me, you know, in this journey? My partners having their own process, what could be supportive for me?

SPEAKER_03 41:24

Yeah, and I just think of you know, Ted Lasso, but it's also part of like our current wave of therapies and coaching. It's like, you know, more curiosity, less judgment. It would be so easy to judge our our spouses or partners um for where they're at and you know whether yeah. But let's just get curious. Let's get let's think of some really good questions. And also I would say find a friend who can support you, find a friend that you can vent to who's who helps you feel like you have somebody in the trenches with you. If your spouse or partner cannot be right now, find somebody who can be in the trenches with you.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

I also want to say that a form of this can happen. It's not kind of a one and done. Yeah, it can happen again and again. So we're we're gonna have multiple opportunities to practice curiosity and less judgment and um practice that compassion. And there are gonna be times when we're gonna need we're gonna need that compassion that we might actually be the ones in denial because our grief buttons are pushed. So I think just knowing that, just know that, just acknowledge that um it's so normal. It's so okay. Thanks so much for listening today. Do us a favor and leave us a review and a rating so that this podcast can get into the ears and the heart of more and more moms. Did you know that Brave Together podcast is an extension of our nonprofit organization? We are brave together. We are brave together for an international community of caregiving models, upgrade support groups that are virtual and in-person educational resources and low-cost and retreat. And we have published our first anthology of caregiving stories at the title of the coming brave together. Relic extraordinary caregiving stories from mother and playing title. It will encourage and validate every parent carrier. To join us today, go to rearbravetogether.org. Brave Together High. Personal risk. Please seek out a professional to assess your own medical or mental health concerns because we are all beautifully complex and the content of this podcast is for a broad audience.