EXPERT: The Good Sleep Guide for Neurodiverse Children with Dr. Melisa Moore

Hello Brave Friends! Welcome to today's expert episode, #252, with Dr. Melisa Moore, a sleep psychologist who specializes in supporting neurodivergent children and teens.

These expert episodes bring conversations with professionals whose work supports caregiving parents and families navigating complex needs.

In this episode, hosts Jessica Patay and Susanna Peace Lovell talk with Dr. Moore about the unique sleep challenges many neurodivergent children experience. Dr. Moore explains that neurodiverse brains can process sleep differently, and many sleep struggles are rooted in biology, development, and environmental factors—not parenting mistakes.

Dr. Moore shares practical, science-backed strategies to help families improve sleep routines while also encouraging parents to balance ideal recommendations with the realities of daily life. The conversation explores how to recognize when sleep issues may require professional support, how to create sleep environments that support regulation, and how mindset shifts can reduce anxiety around sleep for both parents and children.

Jessica and Susanna also discuss the important role sleep plays in emotional regulation, mental health, and overall well-being for neurodivergent youth. Dr. Moore offers compassionate encouragement for caregivers navigating sleep struggles and reminds parents that progress often comes from small, sustainable changes rather than perfect routines.

This episode is filled with practical insights and reassurance for families seeking better rest and healthier sleep habits for their children.

Find more about Dr. Melisa Moore here. 

Find Dr. Melisa Moore’s book, The Good Sleep Guide for Neurodivergent Kids here.

Find more information about Life Coach, Susanna Peace Lovell here.

Find Susanna’s book, Your True Self is Enough here.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Brave Together Podcast, an empowering resource for the parents of children with disabilities, neurodivergence, and all unique needs.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

If you look at the research on bedtime routines, even if you can't do it every day, there's still a benefit to doing it, even if you can only do it twice a week. And so I don't want people to give up because they're seeking perfection or seeking the ideal. That's okay. We have to fit these things into the bajillion other things we are worrying about as parents.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Hello, bravies. I am your host for this episode, Susanna P. Slavelle, author, life coach, and advocate for disability families. I am joined by my wonderful co-host Jessica Pate, brave mom and founder of the nonprofit We Are Brave Together. On today's expert episode, we're speaking with Dr. Melissa Moore, a sleep psychologist and expert in supporting neurodivergent children and teens. Sleep challenges are incredibly common for families raising neurodivergent kids, and many parents are left wondering if what they're experiencing is typical, what might actually help, and when it's time to seek professional support. In this conversation, Dr. Moore shares science-backed insights into why neurodiverse brains process sleep differently and offers practical strategies that parents can begin using right away. Jessica and I get to talk with Dr. Moore about the many reasons neurodivergent children may struggle with sleep, how to create routines and environments that support better rest, and how parents can shift their mindset around sleep challenges with compassion and realism. She also reminds us that sleep struggles are not the result of bad parenting, but rather the intersection of biology, development, and family life. This episode is full of thoughtful guidance, practical tips, and reassurance for caregivers navigating the complicated world of sleep with their children. Just a quick reminder to rate and review this podcast, share episodes with your friends, follow us on social media, and check out our episodes posted weekly on our We Are Brave Together YouTube channel. And now please enjoy this very informative and life-giving conversation with Dr. Melissa Moore about all things sleep.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Melissa, welcome to today's show. Suzanne and I had such a great time meeting you in person at Dr. Meyer Shunker's book event. That was so great. That was KISS Met. And I'm so glad we're here today talking about your book. Everyone, go get it. I'm sure we'll link it in the show notes. But oh my gosh, The Good Sleep Guide for Neurodivergent Kids. This is going to be a great conversation. We're so excited about your expertise and just what you're going to bring to our listeners today.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Great. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

So I think that another thing too, I totally believe in serendipitous meetups. Um, so just to sort of play on that, uh, you know, we're all sort of in the same space. You are, you know, recently a few years now you've lived in Los Angeles, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Yeah, a little more than two.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

A little more than two years, right? Looking for people, looking for your community. And then all of a sudden, here we are. Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Here we are, Melissa.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

I know with open arms.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

It was so wonderful. I never introduced myself to people like that either, but there was just something that made me do it.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Yay. So glad. You'll never, yeah, we'll never be apart. So um, yeah, and I just wanted to read the entire title of this book because I think it's important to talk about the Good Sleep Guide for Neurodivergent Kids, science-backed strategies for children and teens with ADHD, autism, and other neurodiversities. Delicious, um, chunky, but digestible, anecdotal, you know, stories, but also like, you know, I love images, and there were some beautiful ones in here. And that always helps to reconnect me when I get tired from reading words. But anyway, all of that to say, we're so happy to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

So let's ask you first why, why, why? Why do neurodiverse kids have so many sleep problems?

SPEAKER_00 4:44

What is going on in their little brains? There are so many reasons. And I have to say that very few of those reasons, none of those reasons, have to do with bad parenting or a mistake that you made. It's just the way that people with neurodiverse brains, the way that their sleep works. So, first of all, there are there can be a harder time just settling down. That's one of the things. The second is really it can the way the brain is wired to shut down for sleep doesn't necessarily happen the way that it should for neurodiverse kids. The circadian rhythm can be different. So, for example, we know in kids with ADHD, it can be a little bit later. For people with autism, it can be inconsistent sometimes later, sometimes earlier, it can be all over the place. Um there are also sleep disorders that are more common in people with ADHD, for example. They're more likely to have restless sleep disorders like restless legs or periodic limb movement disorder, where you're moving around a lot in your sleep and it's waking your brain up. And then the last thing is that the other things that tend to ride alongside whatever that neurodiversity is. So whether it's something like anxiety or depression or um medical things like reflux or pain, those things can interfere with sleep too. So there are a number of reasons that neurodiverse people have a harder time with sleep.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

I'm I'm curious and wondering also um how you got interested in this field, because I know it wasn't until like the the field of sleep, sleep study, and um you are a psychologist and you are an expert on sleep disorders, and it wasn't until you were 10 years into your career that your son was born. Is that correct? Or when he was diagnosed?

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Can you know when he was born? So um when I was an idealistic psychology graduate student wanting to make a big impact on the world, um, I was really primarily interested in working with adolescents. I just loved working with teenagers. And so I started looking into what are major causes of harm, morbidity, mortality in teenagers. And what I found is still true today, that the leading causes of death are suicide, homicide, and accidents. And so I was like, what is the thread here? And one thing that relates to all of those is sleep, believe it or not. So that's how I initially got interested. Um, but then the reward of being able to help people with sleep problems just was so wonderful. Because when you can help, as you know, when you can help someone with their sleep, it can be life-changing. And I love that. So I was working um at the children's hospital of Philadelphia for about 10 years before my son was born, and then it was another three years before he was diagnosed. So that's how I got interested.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

And he was diagnosed specifically with autism at the time. ADHD came later or yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

So first autism and then ADHD. Um, and he wasn't diagnosed right away. I'm sure many of your listeners, as well as both of you, can relate to I kept feeling like there's something, there's something. And, you know, was reassured by a lot of different providers, no, it's nothing. Um, and then eventually it became clear. So he did not actually have very many sleep problems as an infant or a toddler, which is unusual. It really was around the time I think he started kindergarten that it all just went down the tubes.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Yeah, like like you think you've got it down, right? Exactly. Exactly.

unknown 8:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

And I was always like, well, I can fix that, I'll fix it later. Or, you know, um, I was more worried about everything else that there is to worry about, which is a lot. But then when his sleep started really, you know, changing and becoming much more difficult, you know, I had to rely on my colleagues and my friends too to help with his sleep.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Well, and I bet this informs how you talk with parents. And I love how you said at the beginning, Melissa, this is not a parenting problem. So thank you so much for that. And you encourage your readers to balance the ideal with their family's real, as you put it. Can you say more about that?

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Sure. Um, so we we all know what the ideal is in a lot of health-related arenas. We know we're supposed to floss every day, we know we're supposed to reapply sunscreen, we know we're supposed to get X amount of aerobic exercise, and that's not the problem. The problem generally is fitting it into our real lives. And for example, a bedtime routine. If you look at the research on bedtime routines, even if you can't do it every day, there's still a benefit to doing it, even if you can only do it twice a week. And so I don't want people to give up because they're seeking perfection or seeking the ideal. That's okay. We have to fit these things into the bajillion other things we are worrying about. As parents, you know, we're all dealing with behavior, nutrition, what's the future, school, so many things, so many stones that we are turning to, you know, to do what's best for our kids. And so with sleep, I think it's also really important to consider all of those things, in addition to other kids, your living situation, your own health. These sleep recommendations really have to fit in with all of that.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

And I love that it's like a invite the entire family in to the process, really.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

And I would also even offer the pets in the family.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

No, I'm just saying because the pets can help or they can hurt.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Right, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

For some families, you know, I've worked with people who are like every day at 4 a.m., they wake up and then we find out it's because the cat jumps on the bed or the dog needs to be fed. But for other kids, that sensory, like the petting and the softness of the fur, I sometimes recommend adding that to the bedtime routine because it's so soothing for some kids. Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

How do you know that it's time to seek a professional, though? That's a good question. Like, where's the cutoff? Like, okay, this was kind of normal, interrupted sleep, what you know, and then okay, now we've got to really talk to a sleep expert such as yourself.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

I think if there is any if there are physical symptoms, so breathing seems a little bit off, any snoring, gasping, pauses in breathing, definitely need to go see a sleep physician or a sleep specialist right away. Um, if there are night wakings that are a little bit confusing, you're not sure why, um, that can be another reason. But also, if you just need help, I think that's okay to seek it as well. And, you know, one of the reasons that I wrote this book, one of my inspirations, was that I do this for a living. You know, I do this for a living. I can ask a lot of other specialists and colleagues. I have access to research, and still it's really hard. And I have asked my own colleagues and friends for help too. So it's difficult. And I just want parents to know it's it's not you. It is legitimately difficult. If it's hard for me, and I I probably have it exponentially easier in terms of sleep than almost everybody, it's just hard. It's just hard. Thank you for saying that.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Back to your son when he turned five-ish around that time. So, how did his sleep pattern start changing? What did you start noticing? What was going on in his life at the time? I'm assuming maybe he was starting school, or I'm not sure. I'm just curious what were the symptoms and what sort of like made your head tilt to the side and be like, okay, something is changing and shifting here. Let me let me pay attention.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

He was not able to fall asleep for a very long time. And we had pretty, pretty good sleep habits at that time. He had a bedtime routine, you know, we were consistent, but still it was taking, he wasn't falling asleep until 10 or 11 o'clock at night, and he was in bed at eight. So that was a new change. The second thing that was more difficult for me, and I think it's difficult for a lot of parents, is that he would wake up at four in the morning for the day, sometimes three in the morning for the day. And I remember the exact moment I was walking down the hall with two of my colleagues, and I was telling them how tired I was because I had been woken up at 4 a.m. for the last several weeks. And even though, again, I do this for a living, they were like, that's not okay. That's not, that's not right. And so at that point, I think part of it was, Susanna to answer what you were saying, asking, is that he started taking in information kind of differently. It started affecting him differently. And I could never predict what it was. It could be a new show, it could be a new skill, it could be something that he was thinking about that he just couldn't let go. And so in the book, I give one example of haircuts. So haircuts were really difficult at that age. And so sometimes I would, you know, I had one time I had this little car that was shaped like a tiger, and he really, really, really wanted it. And so I brought it in my pocket when he was getting his haircut as a reward. But in my head, I just kept thinking, asking myself, should I give this to him? Is this gonna wreck his sleep? Yeah, he might have great hair, but is he then not gonna sleep for the week because he's so excited about this new little car? And that's exactly what happened. And even now, even now, it's similar. So, you know, right now he's really into space. And if he starts thinking about, you know, potential signs of life on other planets or other solar systems, I'm in for a rough night.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

So it's like his brain is overthinking, overthinking, overthinking, like excited to think about all these great things and can't shut down.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

I think that's part of it. And the other part is sometimes he's just not tired, he's not ready. And I've learned at this point, um, he's 12, that if he says he's not ready, he's not gonna be able to fall asleep right then. And so I really have learned to listen to him and to respect what he has to say. He cannot lie to me about it. He just doesn't, he isn't capable of not telling the truth. So when he's like, uh, you know, I'm really tired, I'm really not tired, then um I let him play with Legos or do something, another quiet activity for a while, and he'll then tell me when he's ready, which is pretty amazing.

unknown 16:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

What do you feel is the most practical advice that seems easy to adapt or or put into place that parents tell you, like, okay, I can do that. And what are some things that parents like back up against when you're like, here's an idea, here's a practice?

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Yeah. It's important to really drill down to the essentials. There's so much misinformation out there, and people will say, you know, you have to have water sounds or jungle sounds or white noise or brown noise or no noise, you know. Those things don't matter so much, those particulars. And I think um where I end up with those things is whatever's specific to the child and the family. But I think there are two things that are really important. One is to have a bedtime and a bedtime routine. That seems kind of like an underwhelming, you know, recommendation, but when you really look at the research, it does help. It helps the brain to wind down. You know, when we're driving our cars, we don't stop right exactly at the stop sign. We start slowing down. And that's what a bedtime routine does for the brain. And even if your child doesn't like it, or I hear a lot babies that start to get fussy during bath because they know what's coming, that's actually a good sign that they know what's coming. So, bedtime routine, I would say, is critical. Um, the second thing that most people don't know is that night wakings are really related to how you fall asleep at bedtime. And what I mean by that, we all have sleep cycles. So we all go through light sleep, then we go into deep sleep, then we go into dreaming sleep, and then our brains wake up. They wake up all the time. So all of us, the three of us, all of our kids, everyone, our grandparents, our parents, they we all wake up four to six times per night. Whatever you have to fall asleep in the first place, if that is not part of your environment during the night, you're more likely to wake up more. And so we generally don't even know that we woke up because we're so good at getting ourselves right back to sleep, we don't even think about it. If, like, for example, I sleep with two pillows, and if one falls on the floor, I might wake up more and realize that it's on the floor. But it's not that I woke up more, it's that I couldn't get myself back to sleep because I didn't have what I was used to. And so you want to make sure that however your child is falling asleep, you're okay with that situation for the whole night. So if you co-sleep, which is absolutely fine, all night long is the way to go. So not just at bedtime. And so night wakings really relate to how you fall asleep. And I think that's really critical. It might not always be enough. So having a good bedtime routine and having that same environment, which we call safe associations, might not always be enough, but it's where the majority of families should start.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

You know, at some point I knew I would ask about like screens and what do you tell parents about screen time before bed? Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Whenever I answer this question, I feel like I'm gonna be struck down by lightning or some other force. Of course, because I probably am a little bit more nuanced than many providers. If you really look at the science, if you really look at the research, not all screens are terrible for everyone's sleep all the time. Okay. And so, in some cases, so if a child has really high anxiety or really difficult time settling down even enough to get into bed, then studies show that the screen might actually be shortening the time it takes to fall asleep because they're less upset. Now, this isn't that you're falling asleep with the TV on. This is just kind of the calming down part. The eyes closed, lights out part, screens are not a good idea for that. And I would say in most cases, I never recommend screens, but I also, if someone is telling me, look, this is literally the only way that my child is going to stay in bed for longer than two minutes in order to calm down. I'm certainly not recommending that they take it away. Okay. So the answer really is it depends. Okay. Um, you know, it depends on, it also depends on self regulation ability. And so is this a situation where then bedtime Gets later and later and later because of screens, that's that's one of the problems. If you have a good bedtime routine that includes some screens and your child is still going to bed at the same time every night, I really wouldn't worry too much about it.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

I'm curious, Melissa, about just our relationship with sleep and sort of perspective shifting around sleep. You talk about um using the phrase wait for sleep as opposed to let's try to go to sleep. You know, it's it almost feels like let's wait for sleep. It feels so good, it feels so conscious and um inviting. And um, I will just share a quick snippet. I've never had issues with my sleep ever, ever, ever until I had postpartum anxiety after I had my daughter Arizona. And that was 19 and a half years ago. And I will tell you that I still get anxiety if I feel like I'm not gonna be able to fall asleep. So what happened to me is I couldn't fall asleep for like two weeks in a row because I was so anxious about what if Arizona's gonna wake up, what if me, my hormones were all over the place. I was so worried now. I have to take care of this little human being. So I have to be awake. And so then that just sort of messed up my whole um mindset. I was afraid as it became closer to the night, I was afraid, oh no, what if I can't fall asleep? Can you talk a little bit about how we can talk to ourselves and how we can even talk to our kiddos? Even our, you know, my young adult daughter who is autistic and also has ADHD and sometimes will be so anxious and ruminating about so many things that she right. So how can we how can we calmly instead of like, remember that? Remember that sleep book back in the day. Oh yeah, go the F to sleep. Okay, all of a sudden, do you remember that? I do. I think maybe that was not so helpful, like if we're gonna say that, but like wait for sleep. Why don't we just wait for why don't we welcome sleep? Let's just wait for sleep. Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Let's send it an invitation.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Okay, tell us more, please, please.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

So there is literally nothing that we can do to force ourselves to sleep. There's nothing unless you have anesthesia in your house somewhere. There's nothing you can do to force it. Um, all we can really do is set up the right conditions and wait for it to happen. And I think not only is it more accurate to say that and to think that, it's also less stressful because you know, okay, I am just waiting. There's nothing I'm doing wrong. You know, there's nothing I should be doing right now to help my sleep. And so I think using that phrase, even though I still sometimes fall back on just try to go to sleep, but it's more accurate to think of it like you're just waiting for it to happen. And during that waiting is where sometimes we get into trouble by worrying about what's what's the next day gonna look like? How am I gonna get through tomorrow if I didn't get a good night's sleep? One of the things that I think that I've learned actually from families that I've worked with is that the right amount of distraction during that waiting time is key, especially for kids that have a hard time shutting down their minds or people, not just kids, all people that have a hard time shutting down their minds. It has to be something that's engaging enough that you are distracted, but not so engaging that you're like blasting off making another discovery or something like that. And so I work with people individually to find out what those things are. So for some kids that are really into math, maybe they're counting backwards from a hundred by threes. So counting sheep forwards isn't engaging enough, but counting backwards from a hundred by threes is. Or for younger kids, I'll have them think about the colors in the rainbow and name everything they can think of with each color. So, you know, they start with red, fire truck, cherry, stop sign, strawberries, and then when they can't think of anything else, they go to the next color. Um, there's a variation of that called the cognitive shuffle, which also has been shown to help people fall asleep, adults. And that's where you come up with a word like, for example, bedtime, and you start thinking of everything you can think of that starts with B and you picture it in your mind. So it has to be an actual thing. So maybe bubble, bell, blueberry, all of those kinds of things until you get to the next letter. So those kind of distracting things are really critical. I've worked with kids where they really enjoyed ripping up paper. And so they would just do that until they, until sleep arrived. So it's very specific to the person, but I think finding that right level of distraction is really key.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

It's like so tangible, so practical. Like I feel like I'm gonna use some of these.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Yeah, for sure. I mean, the the the title of the book does have neurodivergent in it, and there's a lot of tips specifically for neurodiverse people. But the tips also can be used for adults, they can be used for all kids. There's nothing in there that's really only for neurodiverse people. And Susanna, I wanted to get back to another part of your question that I think I didn't answer, which is how do we talk to ourselves about our sleep and what's gonna happen the next day? And something to know is that there are a lot of things that go into how awake you feel during the day. And sleep the night before is really only one of those things. So being social, going outside, talking to a friend, doing something you really like, there are a lot of things that relate to how awake you feel. And so even though on my end of things, I'm not often saying, don't worry about your sleep, sometimes I'm I'm really, if you have an anxious kid or you're anxious yourself, it's not the time to really focus on your sleep. You're just gonna have a light touch with it. And that's one reason why wearables, so things like rings, bracelets, watches that track your sleep, are number one, not all that accurate. Um, and number, and number two, the people who need to be tracking their sleep, are not tracking their sleep. The people who are anxious about their sleep and really focused on it, the ones who really don't need to know those details are the ones who wear it. Yeah. So I also would recommend if you have an anxious kiddo, I would kind of minimize the emphasis on sleep.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

That's interesting. That's so interesting. What are parents not asking you that you're like, I wish parents would ask me this question? Because this answer would be so helpful.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

I think most people don't ask about communicating expectations around sleep. And I'm not sure how I would ask that if I were a parent either. But the thing about neurodiverse brains is that they perceive and process things a little bit differently, and that's what makes them so wonderfully neurodiverse. But we can't assume that the these aspects of bedtime and sleeping are just so obvious and you know, that they just pick them up because they don't necessarily pick those things up. And for other people, it might be a little bit confusing to think about how to um convey those sleep expectations. Like you're not born knowing that you're supposed to lie there quietly and close your eyes in the dark all night long. That isn't something that is necessarily um in our brains. And bedtime requires a lot of difficult transitions. You know, I was at a conference a few months ago, and there was a presentation by someone who's amazing, an amazing sleep researcher, amazing sleep clinician, one of my favorites, one of the top in the country. And she was talking about how wonderful bedtime can be. And, you know, it's a chance to bond with your child. It also involves nutrition and literacy and hygiene. And in my head, all I could think was, you know, I bet so many people have the exact opposite feeling that bedtime is just so difficult because it involves, it can involve nutrition, reading, hygiene, you know, all of those things are really difficult, can be really difficult. And I think the first step is to communicate what the expectations around those things are.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

And what are realistic expectations? Or is it just so different kid to kid?

SPEAKER_00 31:31

It's really different kid to kid. And I think we have to shape our goals around what's realistic. I'm always confident that I can help a family make things better, but I'm not always confident that I'm gonna be able to get your child to sleep from seven to seven without waking up. I think that um having a realistic starting point is really important, and that is different for everyone. In general, though, we're quiet, even if we're not sleeping, nighttime is a quiet time. And I think that can be true for everybody. And the winding down bedtime routine, even if it doesn't end with sleeping, is also something that's really important.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

I think um what you're saying is so uh this is like you mentioned, I think we underestimate sleep a lot and we underestimate how how transformational it can be. We all know how we feel in the mornings when we're so refreshed, right? We're just like, good morning, right? Um, it really is, I you know, when we were younger in college, whatever, we would pull all nighters trying to study for a test or whatever, but we always knew, like, okay, but I'll catch up over the weekend. As parents, there is that, there is not always that idea that, oh, okay, next weekend I'll be able to sleep in because we it's everything is anyway. Oftentimes we're running on rooms and we're just you know dealing with like impulsivities and uh and behaviors and things like that and patterns. I'm wondering about the transition to teenage life, right? So, like you, Melissa, my daughter Arizona was she slept pretty well. She started sleeping through the night when she was like three and a half months old. And so even though she cried every day, all day and was so miserable, I knew from 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. I could have that quiet time for myself. Ironically, that's when I started stopped sleeping through the night. But, you know, we can't just have, you know, we can't have that, you know, can't have it all at all. We can't have our cake and eat it too. Um, but it was when she was pre-pubescent that things started shifting. And so can you tell us a little bit about um what happens to our kiddos when the teenage years are coming up?

SPEAKER_00 34:06

There are, again, a lot of things, but one thing is that the circadian rhythm, so that clock in your brain that tells your body when to be asleep and when to wake up, shifts by about two hours in adolescence. And this has been studied all over the world, and this is true for teenagers in Hong Kong, in Australia, in Russia, in Mexico. This is true of teenagers all over the world. And when that biological shift happens, the world doesn't say, okay, let's start two hours later. That doesn't happen. And so there's bedtime becomes even more difficult, falling asleep becomes even more difficult, waking up becomes even more difficult. And a lot of times we do see wanting to sleep in on the weekends. And that actually, unfortunately, can negatively impact the ability to fall asleep during the week. So if your child is having no trouble falling asleep at all, then I wouldn't worry so much about it. But if they are, you want to keep your weekend wake time within about two hours of this the weekday bedtime. And I know that's really hard. And if if that doesn't exactly work, just again make the ideal meet your families real, but try to keep things as consistent as you can because it's sort of like, you know, every weekend, then you're flying to a different time zone. And then your body has to adjust on Monday, and then the next Saturday you're flying to another time zone. Um, so that oversleep on the weekends is not a good idea. And similarly, naps. Any daytime sleep, once your child is no longer a napping age, so about kindergarten and older, that daytime sleep can really mess up nighttime sleep. And I hear all the time like they fall asleep for 10 minutes in the car and then they're not falling asleep till three hours later. And that can be true. It's not necessarily a one-to-one correspondence. If you get 10 minutes of sleep, you're gonna have a 10 minute later bedtime. It doesn't work that way. And the reason for that, there are two things that really impact our ability to fall asleep. One is the circadian rhythm that I just talked about, but the second is called sleep pressure. And that's just what it sounds like. When you wake up in the morning, theoretically, you shouldn't really need sleep because you just had it. Your need for sleep, though, builds and builds and builds and builds throughout the day. And when it reaches a certain threshold, that's when your body is able to fall asleep. If you take away some of that sleep pressure with a nap, or even with sleeping in on the weekends, that can impact the weekday sleep pressure. You don't have enough to put you over the edge, or it might influence your ability to stay asleep during the night for a neurodivergent kid specifically. They might have little holes or pockets of wake in their sleep because they don't have enough sleep pressure. It's really helpful. Really helpful. Another thing that I'm thinking about with regard to sleep pressure is what I was talking about with my son. If your child goes to bed at eight, lights out are at eight, and they're not falling asleep until 10 most nights, it's actually better to move bedtime later. It's better to fall asleep more quickly than it is to be in bed for a longer period of time. And I have to say, whenever I tell people that, they are like, no way, I am not moving that bedtime later. This is my only time to clean up, to cook, to work. And so again, here I am about to be struck down by lightning, but um maybe that's the time that you let them watch a movie or that you have them do a quiet activity instead of lying in their bed awake because we do need that time, but we also need that sleep. And being awake in bed for long periods of time is not a good idea. It leads to worse sleep overall.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

I think about sort of what happens in the minds of kids who grow up with sleep problems. I now have sleep issues. I I have sleeping problems, I just like the messages that they internalize where they might not be treating themselves with the amount of compassion because they just don't even know how to do that. And and on top of that, you've got parents who are exhausted, overstimulated, overwhelmed, and they're like, please go the F to bed, right? Like, and so they're getting, there's like a lot of emotions connected to bedtime, right? And not falling asleep or not being a good sleeper or whatever sort of judgments or stories that they are told or they're telling themselves around sleep. How does that compound and how do we get out of those messages in our brains?

SPEAKER_00 39:18

The more that we tell ourselves that we're bad sleepers, the worse sleep we're going to have. Okay. And, you know, a lot of times I'll hear parents reflecting, asking me, what did I do wrong? And that thinking and worrying, what did I do wrong is definitely not helpful for anyone's sleep. And it's also not true. Um for kit neurodiverse kids, the sleep problems just are. They're not because you did anything wrong. And so I think giving yourself a different message to replace that message is really important. And you're you'd use it almost like a mantra, like I've done my best, or I didn't cause this sleep problem, anything like that. If you're having a sleep problem yourself and you're thinking, I'm a bad sleeper, I can never sleep, what if I never fall asleep? And that's where I do teach kids to tell themselves things that are positive but also true. So kids will always, you know, come up with something really optimistic, like tonight I'm gonna fall asleep in 10 minutes. Um, but that's not necessarily true. So you want to tell yourself something like, I always fall asleep, even if it takes a long time, if that's true. If you don't always fall asleep, then it's something like, even when I have a bad night of sleep, I can still play soccer or something like that. Um, so kind of replacing those messages because they do have a huge impact on sleep. And one of the main treatments for insomnia or difficulty sleeping is cognitive behavioral therapy. And those unhelpful thoughts are the cognitive part that needs to kind of be tweaked a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

I finally saw somebody for my sleep issues, sleep issues, um, postpartum, and it was really a mantra that was the most helpful for calming me. Um, because you know, my doctor was like, take ambient, and it didn't work. You know what I mean? It didn't work because my worst too. I fell asleep for three three hours and then woke up with my heart beating out of my chest. It was awful. I never took it again. I've taken it one time in my life. And um, but I went to this holistic doctor because I was so desperate, and I still use this mantra today, which is I am ready, willing, and able to receive peaceful, restful, rejuvenating sleep. I love it over and over and over. And I remember one night I didn't fall asleep till four o'clock in the morning. I was in bed from 10 to that time, just repeating this mantra over, over, over. And I knew Arizona was going to wake up at 6 a.m. on the dot because Jessica and I have early risers.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

And uh so early. Hi! Um, yep. And I repeated that over and over and over again, and I finally fell asleep at 4 a.m. But I was so, I was so energized that I had some agency over. I just felt like, wow, I didn't need to take whatever my doctor was trying to prescribe me. Like I just felt like, okay. And so that that whole mind shift, I mean, I even to this day, if I'm anxious about something, um, it is so calming to me.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

So I love that. I love that. And it perfectly fits into the idea of waiting for sleep. You're saying, like, I'm ready, I'm willing to receive sleep, I'm ready for sleep to visit me. And the other thing that's so great is that your mindset during the day wasn't, I didn't go to sleep till four in the morning. Today's gonna be a terrible day. What if this happens? What if this happens? What if this happens? It was just, it is what it is. A lot of things impact how awake we feel during the day, just to keep ourselves calm and even about sleep. There's no, you know, trying to fall asleep when I hear people say, like, I'm I try so hard every night, or you know, I know my child is trying. I know that that's part of the issue because the trying and the worrying really gets in the way.

unknown 43:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

Yeah.

unknown 43:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

I like I love what you said, Susanna. I want you to text me that mantra because I'm I know me too. Write that down for myself, but also yeah, the menopause years were oh, never used to have sleep. Issues till now, but um but to share with my kids.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Yeah, I love it. You know, sometimes I'll do one that's a little bit similar but shorter, even I'm I'm safe and cozy in my bed. I'm safe and cozy in my bed. I can wait for sleep to come, you know.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

Okay, you know what's ironic, Melissa, is that your voice is so smoothing. Like I am so relaxed. I'm ready for that right now. And I don't know. I mean, it's just honestly, it's it's kind of yeah, it's beautiful and ironic. This has been great. This has been so, so great. So informative.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

I've learned so much, and I know our.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

I'm so glad. I'm so glad. You know, there are just if we can tweak things a little bit and then just kind of relax into it, which you know, as you both mentioned, is really hard to do when you just want your kids to go to sleep so that you can go to sleep.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Exactly. So, Melissa, where can everybody find you? And here's the book one more time.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Great, thank you. So my website is drmelissamore.com. Melissa only has one S, D-R-M-E-L-I-S-A-M-O-O-R-E.com. And there you can find links. But um it's sold on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, any independent bookstores. It's out there.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

Okay, great. So good to be with you. Thank you for your expertise and your passion in this area. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening today. Do us a favor and leave us a review and a rating so that this podcast can get into the ears and the hearts of more and more moms. Did you know that Brave Together podcast is an extension of our nonprofit organization, We Are Brave Together? We Are Brave Together serves an international community of caregiving moms, offering support groups that are virtual and in-person, educational resources, and low-cost weekend retreats. And we have published our first anthology of caregiving stories entitled Becoming Brave Together: Heroic, Extraordinary Caregiving Stories from Mothers Hidden in Plain Sight. It will encourage and validate every parent caregiver. To join us today, go to wearebravetogether.org. Our support and sisterhood awaits you. Brave Together Podcast is for entertainment and education purposes only. It's not a substitute for professional care and should not be relied on for medical or mental health advice. The use of any content on our podcasts, links, show notes, or on our website is to be done at your own personal risk. Please seek out a professional to assess your own medical or mental health concerns because we are all beautifully complex, and the content of this podcast is for a broad audience.