EXPERT: Navigating Aggression Guilt and Support as a Caregiver with Jennifer Iannuzzi

Hello Brave Friends! Welcome to today’s expert episode, #251, featuring Jennifer Iannuzzi, who joins us for a candid and compassionate conversation about supporting children with behavioral struggles, particularly aggression.

These expert episodes are conversations with professionals whose work directly supports caregiving parents. In this episode, hosts Jessica Patay and Susanna Peace Lovell explore the emotional toll that aggressive and dysregulated behaviors can take on caregivers and families.

Jennifer speaks openly about the isolation and stigma many parents experience when their child’s behaviors include self-injury or outward aggression. Together, they discuss how guilt and shame often compound the stress caregivers already carry—and why open conversations are essential in reducing stigma and normalizing these very real struggles.

The conversation also highlights the importance of building intentional support systems, creating safety plans for caregivers, and recognizing parents as valuable partners in their child’s care. They address the difficult and often misunderstood decisions around residential programs, reframing them not as failures but as thoughtful, loving choices made in pursuit of safety and independence for the child.

This episode validates the weight many caregivers carry while offering connection, perspective, and hope. You are not alone in navigating these challenges—and your efforts matter.

Find more information about Jennifer Iannuzzi here.

Find more information about Life Coach, Susanna Peace Lovell here.

Find Susanna’s book, Your True Self is Enough here.

Find our first book from We Are Brave Together here.

Find FULL episodes and clips of our podcast on Youtube here.

Brave Together is the podcast for We are Brave Together, a not-for-profit organization based in the USA. The heart of We Are Brave Together is to strengthen, encourage, inspire and validate all moms of children with disabilities and other needs in their unique journeys. 

JOIN the international community of We Are Brave Together here. 

Donate to support all of We Are Brave Together's programs and offerings here. 

Can’t get enough of the Brave Together Podcast? Follow us on Instagram , Facebook and Youtube. 

Feel free to contact Jessica Patay via email: jpatay@wearebravetogether.org 

If you have any topic requests or if you would like to share a story, leave us a message here.

Please leave a review and rating today! We thank you in advance!

Disclaimer

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Brave Together Podcast, an empowering resource for the parents of children with disabilities, neurodivergence, and all unique needs.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Well, first of all, one of the most important things, but it's not that easy to do, is treat yourself the way you would treat somebody else. Because you would never beat up your friend for not doing enough. But we're so quick to do it to ourselves. And helping women, caregivers, anybody learn that you deserve to be treated the same way you treat your good friends. And I don't know why that's that we don't do that, but we don't seem to do that, and we need constant reminding that we deserve what we give to others.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Hi, brave friends. It's Jessica Petay here, brave mom and founder of the nonprofit We Are Brave Together. And I'm joined by my co-host, Susanna P. Slavelle, author, life coach, and advocate for disability families. Today's episode is an expert conversation about a topic that many caregivers live with quietly and often feel unable to talk about openly. Navigating aggressive and dysregulated behaviors in children, and the emotional toll that comes with it. Our guest is Jennifer Ayanduzi, licensed clinical social worker, who joins us for a candid and compassionate discussion about what it really means to support a child with behavioral struggles. Together we talk about the stigma caregivers face, the isolation that can come from managing aggression, whether that shows up as self-injury or outward behaviors, and the deep feelings of guilt and shame that often follow. This conversation explores how creating intentional support systems can be life-changing, and why parents must be seen as valuable partners in their child's care, and how open dialogue helps reduce stigma. We also discuss the incredibly difficult decisions some families face around residential care and how reframing those decisions can shift the narrative from failure to thoughtful, loving support. We truly believe you're going to appreciate this episode not because it's easy, but because it's honest. If you've ever thought, it's a lot, it's a lot, this conversation is for you. You are not alone. Just a quick reminder to please rate and review this podcast, share episodes with your friends, follow us on social media, and check out all our episodes posted weekly on our We Are Raved Together YouTube channel. And now, please enjoy our conversation with Jennifer Hayandsky.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Hi, Jennifer! Hi, hi, hi. Hi, Jessica.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

So good to see you both. So good to be with you both today. Hi, this is this is a much needed topic, and I'm so excited to have you on. Jennifer, um, for our audience. Jennifer has been leading maybe by two years by now, you've been leading a virtual connection circle for moms who have children any ages with behavioral struggles and and also an aggression. We just don't say that in the title of the connection circle. So we are thrilled to have you on the show and um to talk about a really hard topic and a much needed topic, Jennifer.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Yes, very much needed topic to discuss to help uh caregivers' families feel less stigmatized a little bit by some of the issues that they struggle with, which come up a lot in our behavior challenges connection circle, which is really a great group when you want to be able to sort of explore these issues in a safe, supported environment.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Yeah, and I'm so grateful for this work that you do and being able to hold this for all of us who do have struggles. Sometimes they come in seasons. I'm speaking for my myself uh in terms of um behaviors and specifically aggressive behaviors. I'm I'm wondering if we can just start off the conversation just talking about what some of those behaviors, like how would they present? And again, this is a virtual connection circle. So literally anybody in the universe can have access to it, which is a really phenomenal offering. It is, it is.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

I mean, in our group itself, it is truly a full spectrum, you know, a wide range, um, particularly from caregivers who have young kids, you know, three, four, five, six, to caregivers who have 18 and older. And we sort of all congregate in the same group. The behaviors that we're referencing really vary, you know, um, some can display, uh, present as emotional dysregulation, and that could look like tantrums and meltdowns, um, you know, avoidance of doing activities, um, and not so much outward aggression, but more inward aggression, you know, uh self-indurous behaviors, which can be very difficult for the caregiver to manage and also difficult, especially if it happens in public. Other behaviors that we can see, um, a lot of times, particularly the mom, who's usually the primary caregiver for most parts, can be the target of some of the outwardly aggressive behaviors, throwing things uh that the individual with special needs who is struggling maybe even with mental health issues, could throw objects around the house, could punch the wall, could run and you know, grab their mom or their caregiver. And how to manage that, we kind of talk about that. Oh, also to another very difficult area to manage is when it affects the siblings. Um, that puts the caregiver in a real tough spot. Who do they go to? You know, it's divide and conquer. Here they have their child who who is really struggling with regulation issues, is outwardly aggressive, but then they need to take care of the other kids. Um, so we kind of talk about all of that. I think the the biggest thing that that comes up is the shame and the guilt that the caregiver really holds. Are they doing enough? Can they care for all these individuals in their home at the same time in the right way? And we tackle some of those issues as well. It's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

It's a lot. I know. Big pause right there.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

It's a lot. It's a lot. You know, I'll share a little bit about myself, maybe to kind of give some context for it. So I'm a mom of a daughter with special needs. Her syndrome is called Smith-Meguinnis syndrome. And, you know, the hallmark of that syndrome is a pretty profound and significant behavioral uh component to it. That that can look a couple of different ways. It looks self-indurous, um, that usually is brought on by significant emotional dysregulation. And it can be outwardly aggressive. For me personally, I don't have, I don't deal that much with my daughter being outwardly aggressive to others. Um, sure, she's hit her brothers from time to time, or a classmate, or a teacher, but real true aggressive, I think part of that is because she's a girl, it's more contained. But the inwardly aggressive behaviors that have gone on in public at home have are really very difficult to manage, especially when there's other kids in the home. Um, I've had to divide and conquer my house in the sense that I would put her here and my boys would take a different part of the house, and I would really try to keep it separate during her meltdowns. Because as a caregiver, your job is of course to manage the child with special needs, but it's also to try your best to create a safe environment for the typical kids as well. So being able to do that really takes a toll on the caregiver themselves, managing all of that.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Yes, it does.

SPEAKER_03 8:26

Yes, it does. Yes, it does. I was holding my breath. I don't know why, but I was holding my breath the entire time you were talking, Jennifer, because I just feel feel it so much in my bones. You know, I feel like our bodies are holding, you know, holding so much for us, especially as caregivers. I'm feeling this especially now, just because I'm just going through a very challenging season with my 19 and a half-year-old also daughter. I get a little excited when I meet another special needs mom in the wild who has a daughter too, because it's just been uh sometimes I feel a little isolated. How old is your daughter, Jennifer? I'm curious. She's 20.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

She just turned 20 in December. Okay. And uh I understand exactly what you're saying. You the girl, there's far fewer girls out there in the special needs world, uh, especially that um have aggressive tendencies and self-indurous behaviors. So you are very isolated. Um, I don't know that many other individuals with the same situation, to be honest. And it's a long road to do that, 20 years to not have such a big community of other girls in that that situation. Even at her special needs school, there's been more in the recent years, but in the beginning, she was probably maybe three or four girls in the program.

SPEAKER_03 9:53

Sorry, I'm so being so selfish here, but I I'm asking for I'm asking for our audience, but I'm also really asking for myself. This is so supportive. This is such a necessary conversation for me right now in this very moment, Jennifer. And I'm so grateful. I'm wondering if you can explain a little bit by what you mean by inner aggression, like sort of that inner and and you're saying how it can present, but but it's not like she's necessarily hitting anybody or acting out externally, but I I'm just trying to understand.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

So Yeah, no, uh it's an excellent question because when you when like for myself, living it so long, I've used that term. I kind of assume other people uh can have a visual, but this is what it can look like. So if my daughter um ends up, you know, in a in a space where she's flooded or emotionally dysregulated, or uh other people would call it a tantrum or a meltdown, it looks like you know, running around the house, uh, slamming a door, knocking something off the counter, but it's so erratic and it's so um disorganized that it feels aggressive in nature to the person who's watching it. And so your body really does experience it in the same way, even though it's not a physical aggression outward. Inside, you can see that she is just falling apart piece by piece, and you're running after her, picking up the pieces and putting it back together. And when pushed to the extreme, although I would say as the years have gone on, she's gotten much better at it. She used to hit herself in the head, bang her head on the wall, bang her head on the floor. And I know we call those self-indurous behaviors, but they are aggressive in nature. You know, as difficult as that was, I'm fairly connected to the Smith McGuinness community. Um, it's called SMS. And a lot of kids have really hurt themselves with those behaviors. Um, and so that's also an added layer. My daughter, thankfully, has never really harmed herself to the point where I've needed any intervention. But think of the caregiver. Not only are you watching your child fall apart, then now you need to worry about if they've really truly done damage. It take it takes a toll on the caregiver to watch that. What what what does your daughter struggle with, Susanna?

SPEAKER_03 12:24

I mean, it's like depending on the minute of the day.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

Um, I I will say that you know, her official diagnoses are, you know, um autism spectrum disorder. There's a lot of sensory dysregulation. She has generalized anxiety, but that sort of rules the roost a lot in terms of you know her day-to-day as a 19 and a half-year-old girl, sort of navigating through this life. Um, you know, we had a a different kind of path to where we are now in terms of she's still in high school, actually. And so I'm actually grateful for that. We get a lot of supports there. But she used to be very, very outwardly, you know, she would like take a pencil and try to throw it in her teacher's eyeball, you know, that kind of thing. And it for sure it all stems from this uh this place of not feeling in control, right, and just outwardly having to release and express something to get it out. Um, luckily, we were able to find the most phenomenal therapeutic preschool called Cheerful Helpers Child and Family Study Center here in Los Angeles, where they really, really believed in the tantrum. Like they were really like, we need to know what we're working with. So let's get it all out. There's no way to integrate back in if we're not really seeing all of these behaviors. So I am so grateful that there wasn't this suppression from an early age of like, stop it, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Right, right. Right. Um, there was definitely narration, like, oh, I'm noticing you're really hurting your body. You're aiming the pencil toward, you know, Miss Rebecca's eyeball, right? Um, but but I would say she she's always, you know, sort of bit herself. She bit bites her finger, she's had big chunks of her arm and hand, just she needs a lot of oral sort of stimulation for regulation. She used to hit me. Um, she doesn't anymore, but she has thrown things for sure. She is starting to get really upset with herself. I'm so stupid, I'm so ridiculous, I can't control myself, I can't stop myself, I don't know what to do. But I could get into some more details, but I also know that she could be listening to this. So I just, you know, I it's just like you said, sometimes it just feels so erratic. Like, where did that come from? Yeah, right. Yeah. Um, and and unexpected. And so, so at every turn, you know, as you know, Jennifer and Jessica in this community and club that we're in together, I am always on on call, like on edge. Um, even if she's not right with me in the room, right? Because the school could call or someone could call, and I just don't know what what is going to present. So it's so different on every day, and new things are coming up that I'm like, I don't know. I'm feeling like, what's wrong with me? You know, I can't get a handle. Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

I know, I know. And I and I think you bring up a good point because that is something that comes up in the connection circles as well. Or, or also I I have a practice where I see I am a therapist and I talk to a lot of families who are caregivers to kids, uh, individuals with special needs. And it's the same theme that comes up in all a lot of my work with them, as well as myself personally. You know, am I doing enough? Why can't I do this? And then, you know, we're also flooded with social media as well, because we go on there for connection with other people, but then we also hear how others are doing, and we judge ourselves up against that as well. Why can they accomplish that? And I can accomplish that. So, you know, in in all ways, social media is a double-edged sword. It's a tremendously connective device, but then it also can make us feel a little bad that why are we not doing it like they are doing it? But I think the theme that I'm hearing here and in all of my groups is what regardless of what the behavior is, how severe, not severe, the the commonality is that it is erratic, it is unpredictable, and it can have significant consequences to the special needs individual, to the environment that they're in, and to the other people in the family. And over the years, it does take a toll on our nervous systems, a tremendous toll. And that's what gets worn down if we aren't able to talk about it and get it out and share in these communities that it isn't you. You didn't do anything wrong. This is part of the syndrome or the neurodevelopmental disorder or whatever they're struggling with. And you're doing everything you can to contain, to contain and keep everyone around them safe. And the more we know that we're doing enough, my hope is the less reactive our nervous system is gonna get. Because over the years it really does take a toll. At least that's my experience. I mean, I I thought I was handling it really well. I really did. I mean, if I was gonna, I I did, and I ended up with an autoimmune disorder from all of the wear and tear. It finally wore me down. I mean, we could blame an autoimmune on a million things, but I really did take very good care of myself and it wasn't enough because it it's that fight flight that continually gets activated. Um even if you're sitting in the house calm as anything, your body remembers and it's ready.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Yes, that completely resonates. I also have to say, and I it just it kills me, is that Anne Luke and Kate, my other two kids, their nervous system is also shot and affected from growing up with Ryan. You know, I say like they're amazing and resilient and strong and compassionate and loving and you know, have been great cheerleaders and advocates for Ryan and they're scarred. Like I just hate that they have witnessed the aggression, that they've had to participate in restraining Ryan, or they've watched Ryan get restrained by me or Chris or caregivers, or I hate that that lives in their body and their memories. I just I wish I could take that away.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

I know, and I think that's something all of us as caregivers want for other kids, or you know, or neurotypical kids, however, best way to say it. But I also think it it there's a lesson there too that's learned on how to uh over time regulate their own emotions for stressful situations.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:27

Because they've really a lot of times they've had to be the calm one in the room, though they don't realize it at the time, but they've learned how to almost calm themselves down to show up for the other person. But it does, it it's not easy, it's a big price to pay. It is, it is.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

What do you think is the most comforting or validating thing to say to parents who are dealing with aggressive children?

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Well, I think first and foremost, they need to be validated that that number one, it's happening, that it's difficult, and that it does take a toll. I think that that's the most important thing because a lot of times I think I don't think it's done intentionally, but it also a lot of times they're inadvertently blamed. If they just did this, if you follow the behavior plan, if you adhere, we're not having that problem here. We don't see that at school, you know. Um, so I think right off the bat, you just need to listen and validate and and not challenge, not question and and all of that. And then take it a moment to really focus just on the caregiver and what it's doing to them, not so much about what the behavior is, but let them be seen and heard, acknowledged. I I do think that goes a long way because intermittently over the years, I would find myself in places where it wasn't on purpose and it wasn't done in a in a malicious, mean way. You you just don't know, you know, uh not challenged, but but questioned that it was that bad. Or because if it was that bad, then you would be doing X, Y, and Z or trying to normalize it. I remember in the early years when my daughter would headbang quite a bit. Other parents would be like, oh, my kid did that. And I and I found myself saying, trust me, not like this. It didn't look like this. And sometimes I'd get tired in certain social circles having to prove that I was different, that it was different. And nobody likes to be in that place because you end up feeling very isolated and alone. I really think the best thing you can do is validate that it is hard, it is difficult, and that you're not alone.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

How do we create safety systems? Meaning people that we can call when this is happening and you need backup. Not everyone has the luxury of having a caregiver who's trained but living in the house daily or there for several hours a day. Right. That is an ultimate luxury. Some social service agencies do provide that because they're trying to prevent an out-of-home placement. Right. And so you have people at the house or you have two people at the house while that child is awake. This doesn't happen in every state. Does every family that needs it doesn't get it? Because I'm just thinking back, oh Ryan is less aggressive now than he used to be. There was a time where it was a lot more often and a lot more unpredictable. I had a couple people that I shared with that said that were within five minutes of me that said, just call me and maybe just by me showing up, it will sort of short circuit things. And I actually took them on it, each two different people, each once. I mean, ideally a trained person, but like it is so scary to be in that situation alone with that child or teenager or adult. If you have other, you know, kids around too, or not, you know, your partner is an hour away. Right. Or maybe you don't have a partner. Right. Or your partner can't just can't leave. Or whatever. I don't know. Yeah. It's how do we create some supports? I think that's an excellent question.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Uh and this is so you're right. There are not people, there are no people who are going to come like a crisis team. And at the same time, you're even reluctant to call on them because you don't know what you're going to get that they show up. I think what you did with friends is an excellent idea. And hearing you say that, I should have done that more, but it's being able to trust and feel comfortable of letting someone in to see that, you know, because it's very hard to look at. But I always, one of the things I thought about in my moments when my daughter would be having a very difficult time. And a lot of times the difficult time would take place in the car because if it started at home, I didn't want the boys to be exposed to it or create the chaos. So I would take her out. So she would be having a tantrum carrying on in the car, which some would say that how's that safe, whatnot. But for whatever reason, she continued to tantrum but sat in the seat. I don't know, there's no logic to it sometimes. Right. But it would be carrying on, and she would throw her shoe at me or throw something from the back, and I'd make sure I'd collect all this stuff. But what I always wanted in that moment was someone to text, just to be able to say, I'm, I don't know what I'm gonna do, and get all of that panic and whatnot out. Because sometimes it all it takes is someone on the other end to say, you're doing the best you can, it's gonna pass. She's done this before. Trust me, this will it will end. How do you know it's gonna end? Because it's ended before just some kind of coach or somebody on the other end, because all you're you're 100% right, Jessica. To be able to call a hotline and someone at your door and help you manage in a perfect world, that would be ideal. I just don't know how that would work. And you're 100% right. If you've got community support and friends, I wholeheartedly think what you did was a great idea. I actually never thought of that when I was going through it. But having someone now that with the phones and texting and how easy it is today, uh, a hotline.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

You know, we need a hotline. We we've been talking about this for years. I mean, we need a hotline, just a just a warm and voice on some other line that is just consciously listening and not trying to step in with advice or do this or do that, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:25

But just to sit with you in it, to sit with you in it, yeah. Right, right. Because a lot of times I felt very alone uh sitting with that, you know, and and having to to to get through those difficult moments at hours sometimes until it worked itself out.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

So yeah, but it is a need, and a lot of times in those moments, it's understandable um that you can't even grab your phone because, first of all, the throne your phone was thrown, you know, out the window by said child, and you're actually restraining your child with both your legs and both your arms wrapped around them because that was my experience with my daughter, literally like arms and legs wrapped around for restraining and by myself in the house. I'm like, I can't even yell out the window when someone will hear me, right? Yeah, so I you know, I want to go back and talk about you know this motherhood guilt that we feel, um, which is by the way, so easy for us to feel. It's like the most easily accessible, um, I don't know, character trait or whatever you want to call it for moms in general. And now when we have this, you know, situation where we are feeling like judged or shamed for the way that our child or children, and I would even offer now that I have an adult child, right? Her having a three-year-old tantrum is very much looked upon in a much different way than now when she's 19 and a half and will have these explosions in public, which feel very uncontrollable. Right. Um, and then so how do we help, help Jennifer? How do we, you know, how do we how do we talk to ourselves in these moments? How can we be more compassionate, not only with ourselves, but but but with other moms where we see because we have all been out um and about and seen someone having a tantrum, right? We we've all seen it. Um, and so how can we uh sort of breathe through it and and realize and recognize like this is not indicative of my worthiness as a parent, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:51

That is what is that like that sixty-four thousand dollar question, or that you know, it's a tough question to answer on how to stop beating ourselves up. And I I think without special needs, women do that. So we're already starting off at a disadvantage because we come to the table already being some of the most judgmental, self-critical people around, right? And then and then you add this layer to it. And I I think, well, first of all, one of the most important thing, but it's not that easy to do, is treat yourself the way you would treat somebody else. Yes, because you would never beat up your friend for not doing enough, but we're so quick to do it to ourselves and helping women, caregivers, anybody learn that you deserve to be treated the same way you treat your good friends. And I don't know why that's that we don't do that, but we don't seem to do that, and we need constant reminding that we deserve what we give to others. But I think the second way to do it, which is very hard, like these connection circles are a lifeline. And but at the same time, it's very hard for some of our caregivers to get to them. They're they've got multiple things going on, but what they learn in there and see firsthand is that they're not the only ones. And once you start seeing that other mothers struggle also, you you start to be a little bit more gracious with yourself and you start to actually begin to realize how much you do. I'm hoping some of that self-talk kind of dissipates of I'm not doing enough, I should have done a better job, I could have done this differently, and being your own cheerleader because you've got other women friends or a spouse or family that might be your cheerleader, but you really need to do it for yourself.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

You do, you do. And it also makes me think we've been indoctrinated, and hopefully over time this will go away culturally, societally, that we're supposed to be able to control our kids, which I mean, you quickly realize in motherhood you can't control anything. No, you you can't. Nope. You can't. Yes, do I we learn behavior management? Yes, we go to trainings, yes, I will go to PWS behavior training again and again. Learn, apply. But there you cannot control your child. So I think can we just all collectively let ourselves off the hook that that was a false narrative that we bought into? That we're placing, you know, unrealistic expectations on ourselves that we're not meeting. So then that there comes the guilt. Yes, a hundred. Just comes from unrealistic or uh expectations that were never meant to be placed on ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Well, I uh you're a hundred percent right with that, and I think part of that comes from this innate need, I think we all have it, to feel in control of our environment. Yeah. Because it brings a sense of security and safety. And what I wish we could start to try to do is maybe reframe that a little bit, because the only thing we can control is ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

And what will make some of those interactions with our kids feel a little better is if we feel more in control. And that doesn't mean we know how to solve everything. That, you know, it's a it's almost like a radical acceptance that this is this is gonna happen. This is far for the course, but I am gonna be okay and not worry so much about controlling the situation, but keeping myself in control, my emotions in check. Because I do think there is an it's an internal need to control. It's not a bad thing. We all look at the word control as it's a four-letter word, it's a terrible thing, but it's I mean, it is we we do gravitate towards that to feel safe in our environment.

unknown 33:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Um, I would like to switch gears and make sure that we ask this. Like, you know, I've had many friends who have kids who've who've been extremely aggressive, and I don't really understand how they handled it for so long when they were aggressive towards them or the siblings. When do you know that you've hit the point where I have to place this child out of home? How do parents feel like they actually have permission to get to that place when they they are running on fumes with no sense of safety?

SPEAKER_02 33:42

That is a very real issue. I can speak from my own experience with a different twist to it, and maybe it can apply to what you're saying. So recently my daughter started a residential program uh six months ago. It's been years, years, years in the making of figuring out what we were gonna do, if we were gonna do it, how we were gonna do it, where we were gonna do it, and going back and forth to I will never do it, to I need to think about doing it. And for myself, the way I came, the the decision came in a few different ways. One, an incredible opportunity came our way. Um, so it made it easier. Um, I didn't have to settle, I didn't have to accept something I didn't want to accept. So, yes, it was a much easier decision. But the way I looked at it and the way I'd like to apply it to what you just shared, Jessica, is that I knew that for my daughter to have a quality of life that would allow her the most autonomy, the most independence, the chance at something for herself outside of feeling 100% dependent on the environment of her close family. I was gonna need to try. And I didn't frame it in the sense that I couldn't do it. I didn't frame it to myself that I had no choice, I didn't frame it that I failed, therefore she needs to go. I framed it that she deserved this opportunity. Yeah. And I think when you're dealing with the aggression to the magnitude you were referring to, I understand why parents would feel that way. But the reality is if I was speaking with them, I'd want them to try to reframe it as you're giving them an opportunity. And if it doesn't work, of course, you'll pivot and figure something out. But it's a chance and an opportunity for them to spread their wings to some degree, to but but to feel that they can do it, because that ability to be independent goes a long way. I think I would I would want to work with a family like that to help them reframe what going to a residential program looked like because we we put such a negative feel on it, and I understand why. There are not a lot of good places out there. You have to feel 100% comfortable with where you're going. So I get all that. It's not easy to find, it's a needle in a haystack in the world we live in today, but it is an opportunity for that individual with special needs to get a shot at having something that only belongs to them.

SPEAKER_03 36:39

Beautiful. And I love those two words you mentioned too, Jennifer. Like, let's try talking to the parents who are again beating themselves up for thinking that I couldn't handle it. And so, therefore, this is the result. You know, I love a reframe for everything. Seriously, it's so supportive. Um, our minds are so powerful, right? Um and words are powerful too. So I feel like when we can have the reframe of like what an opportunity, yes, for our child, and what an opportunity for our family, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:20

What an opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

I'm so curious what your six months has been like, Jennifer.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

It's been different. How do I phrase it? On one end, it's been a great learning experience for all of us. I didn't think my daughter would would survive, make it there. I honestly would have thought she'd be home within four weeks. I kind of say to myself, I underestimated what she could could accomplish. Um, I say that though, that I did have a very unique experience. Uh I I qualify it because I don't want it to sound easy, but my situation, my daughter went to this school with the bulk of the same staff since she was seven. And the school changed over the years and recently grew into a residential component.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

So it cut down on a lot of transitions, a lot of changes. I don't want to say it was easy, but I got lucky that it was an easier process because of the way it took place. But even that being said, I still didn't think she was going to make it there. Uh, my daughter only never slept away from us a day in her life. She slept in an enclosed bed every single day of her life here. She had hardly any other caretakers other than us. The one caretaker that she had was with us since before my daughter was born. So this was a huge change to go to an environment with multiple caregivers, many of whom she would not have met because the residential staff would be all new, lots of people having to learn, and no enclosed bed. So she had to learn to sleep in a regular bed and learn the structure around that. So there were a lot of things she had to accomplish. And she's doing it. But even all that being said, I think the hardest part about going to a residential program is trust. Trust in staff, trust in not having your eyes on your child, not being at arm's length. So for me, these past six months have been uncomfortable. It's an uncomfortable feeling to step away and not have that control. But in conjunction with that, that fight-flight feeling that I've lived with for 19 years has is going down a little bit. But even that is an uncomfortable feeling to not live in constant hypervigilance.

SPEAKER_03 40:10

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 40:11

But um, but after all these years, I've learned we take it one day at a time. She's doing well today, and that's how I I look at it. But it it took a lot of reframing on my part to um be willing to try because we're there's so much wrapped up and so unspoken judgment about sending your child to a residential program. Tune it out and and make it, you know, reframe it for yourself.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

Why are we not talking about this enough? And we're getting close to the end of our time, but why are we not talking about this enough? Why are we not raising enough awareness that parents actually go through this? A lot of parents are going through this, having children that are really, really aggressive.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

I I uh because I think I I can even see it when in the groups that we run or even in with my clients, there's a lot of shame around it. And I think it's uh you need to really uh create a safe environment for that caregiver to openly discuss it because they don't know what they're gonna get back. And and I don't know, I mean, I think the connection circles are a great place, but uh because I even think they get the judgment at at the programs they're in, at schools they're in, and um, they're defended. So it's hard for them to sort of open up about it.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

And if if you're a parent listening and you've been the parent who's been called to pick up your kid again and again and again and again, that is the fault of the school. That is the fault. I'm just gonna be bold to say this. It's the fa it is their job to figure out your kid and what is best for your kid, what triggers, how to address it, how to de-escalate. They should not be calling you to pick up your kid. I don't care how old they are. They should not be calling you. It is their, they need to have a team or create a team to work with your child. You should not be picking up your child ever.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

Yeah, I I agree with that, and I'm I'm even gonna take it one step further. I think, yes, 100%, they should know, they should have a plan in place and be able to do all of that, but they should also be open to joining and teaming with the parent. Yes. Because a number of times parents go in there and they're minimized, they're silenced. What they what they can bring to the table, well, they don't listen to it. And the the most important person at those meetings is the parent. Yes, they do it every day, all day. And if you take the combination of that, if you listen to the parents' input and really take the time to hear what they manage, how they manage it, what they deal with, then yes, the school should be 100% able to manage that because it needs the two-sided piece. And I uh that's where I think a lot of pro schools fall short. They do not take the parent input. It's it's an investment, right? It is, and then when you get in that situation that you're commenting on, the school ends up blaming the parent because I I've sat on both sides of that table. So in my early career life before kids, I worked at a day, believe it or not, with special needs kids at a day in residential program. Crazy life. And um I was the tea, not the teacher, but I was the social worker, but on the other side talking to parents. And it becomes a tiny little blame game. When that parent takes that kid home, they let them do whatever they want. I can't tell you how many times I hear that. I heard that then. And I still can hear speakings of that. And it we're just not working together as a team. And I think once we figure out how to do that, parents would be more open to saying it wasn't a good night. He was super aggressive last night because they wouldn't feel shamed or judged by it.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Right. I just want every parent to know that we care deeply and that we have so much compassion on your situation. The three of us, we've we've been through it. Yes. And it's painful and it's heartbreaking and it's scary and it puts us on edge. And if you didn't have anxiety before you had kids, you certainly do now. And and we just want to normalize the level of stress that you live with. Just everything that we've mentioned the guilt, the shame, the feeling alone, the I wish I had somebody to call. I wish I had somebody to help me. Um I wish I could talk about this. I wish my family understood. I wish my friends understood. We see you, we see you, and we want to validate everything that you've been through, everything that you're yet to go through. And we we are here. So please message us, send us a DM, leave us a message on our voicemail. It's called SpeakPipe. You can find it in our show notes. If this resonated with you, please let us know. Please let us know. Share your story. We are here for you. Like I said, we care so deeply, and we see you and we love you. Thanks so much for listening today. Do us a favor and leave us a review and a rating so that this podcast can get into the ears and the hearts of more and more moms. Did you know that Brave Together podcast is an extension of our nonprofit organization, We Are Brave Together? We Are Brave Together serves an international community of caregiving moms, offering support groups that are virtual and in-person educational resources and low-cost weekend retreats. And we have published our first anthology of caregiving stories entitled Becoming Brave Together: Heroic Extraordinary Caregiving Stories from Mothers Hidden in Plain Sight. It will encourage and validate every parent caregiver. To join us today, go to wearebravetogether.org. Our support and sisterhood awaits you. Brave Together Podcast is for entertainment and education purposes only. It's not a substitute for professional care and should not be relied on for medical or mental health advice. The use of any content on our podcasts, links, show notes, or on our website is to be done at your own personal risk. Please seek out a professional to assess your own medical or mental health concerns because we are all beautifully complex, and the content of this podcast is for a broad audience.